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- ToddlerIf you say it's impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God, what you're really saying is that God's existence or non-existence has no effect on the world. If God can't be...(more)disproven, God is impotent.
- I don't think that's really how it works. If you believe in God, you can't prove what is influence by God and what isn't. There's not really a way to do a double blind study
- Any effect you think God is having in the world you can try to isolate empirically.
- How?
- If you think statues bleed, you can examine the statues. If you think prayer heals, you can look at recovery rates. If you think bad people are punished, you can do studies. If you...(more)think that God gives you strength, you can compare the fortitude of believers with that of non-believers.
- I think there is a study about prayer helping recovery rates. No way to gauge for placebo affect, though.
- np- the only double blind study that found results turned out to be a hoax. so no, there is no data on prayer helping recovery rates.
- Ah okay. But maybe God only helps believers?
- the people in the study WERE believers.
- Believers who weren't praying for themselves at all?
- the ones i have read - and keep in mind, there are many - the scientists were believers and wanted to validate prayer. they went into churches and designed double blind studies for...(more)religious people who were sick, getting prayed for by religious people. no effects.
- the ones i have read - and keep in mind, there are many - the scientists were believers and wanted to validate prayer. they went into churches and designed double blind studies for...(more)
- Believers who weren't praying for themselves at all?
- You can test that hypothesis. Take a hundred sick believers, and have strangers pray for half of them. See if that half does better.
- the people in the study WERE believers.
- Ah okay. But maybe God only helps believers?
- There are a hundred studies. All the good ones show no effect if those being prayed for don't know they're being prayed for.
- Yes, that study exists. It (and dozens more) found no effect for prayer.
- np- the only double blind study that found results turned out to be a hoax. so no, there is no data on prayer helping recovery rates.
- well that has been proven over and over, believer have a much better chance of healing
- I think there is a study about prayer helping recovery rates. No way to gauge for placebo affect, though.
- If you think statues bleed, you can examine the statues. If you think prayer heals, you can look at recovery rates. If you think bad people are punished, you can do studies. If you...(more)
- How?
- Any effect you think God is having in the world you can try to isolate empirically.
- i think god is more about perception. and in some cases for people perception is reality
- If God is about perception, then God has no existence independent of human thought. Which means there's no God as the term is commonly understood.
- If God is about perception, then God has no existence independent of human thought. Which means there's no God as the term is commonly understood.
- i don't see how you make that connection. your logic is faulty at best
- yeah, that doesn't follow. i think it's more about the human psyche. and i think for some reason, it's important to god that we choose him. choose faith even though it can't be pro...(more)maybe even because it can't be proven.
- So what does God do? What's God's impact on the world?
- created it. sustains it. i don't believe that christian apologetics -- based on reason, i mean -- is effective, though. otherwise i'd tell you to read c.s. lewis. i think if you believe,...(more)it will just resound with your own intuition. and if you don't, nothing will convince you. christ himself said something similar.
- So you're hypothesizing the existence of an entity for which there is and can be no evidence, an entity that has no discernable impact on the world, an entity who doesn't intervene in...(more)anyone's life in a way that distinguishes the lives of believers from those of non-believers. That, to me, is a God who Occam's Razor tells me to disregard.
- i think the very fact that i exist is evidence. the way the beauty of the world makes me feel is evidence. the horror and repugnance we all feel toward the idea of death and ending is...(more)evidence. and the testimony of my own spirit is evidence enough for me. why are you so vehement and angry sounding about this?
- I'm not angry at all. Believe what you want. But your evidence isn't evidence, it's just ... belief. Evidence presents a falsifiable argument.
- i bet you're fun at parties!
- right. re-read my OR. re-read everything i said. you're the one talking about evidence. i'm the one talking about faith, which by the way has enriched my life in a thousand ways....(more)without it i'd be a terrified existentialist, adrift in a universe full of nothing. no meaning, no significance, no anything that seems so essential to me. i'm talking about my own experience, and i said very clearly that i think evidence/rational argument is very rarely (if ever) the basis for faith.
- You say that in one breath, but then in the next, you cite your experience as evidence. If you're saying there's no evidence for the existence of God, then you and I agree. If you're...(more)saying there is evidence, I'm saying you haven't offered any.
- none that would convince you -- which is fine. i'm not out to convince anyone. i'm just living my life. i used your word at one point -- that was foolish. i should have said "grounds.&q...(more)it's why i believe. not why you should, nor anyone else who doesn't feel the same spiritual conviction i feel. seriously, though. why so dogmatic with the repeat postings and the shrill tone? i am genuinely curious what your angle is.
- I haven't been doing repeat postings. There are several of us here. I can't speak for the others, but I was irked by posters who claimed that atheism is as illogical and dogmatic as...(more)fundamentalism. I can accept agnosticism as a defensible intellectual position, and I can respect a faith like yours as unobjectionable, but the reality is that if we're applying reason and evidentiary standards to the question, the evidence points us in one direction. Every empirical claim that's ever been made for God's existence, and many of them have been, has failed. That, to me, is powerful evidence against the existence of such a God.
- I haven't been doing repeat postings. There are several of us here. I can't speak for the others, but I was irked by posters who claimed that atheism is as illogical and dogmatic as...(more)
- none that would convince you -- which is fine. i'm not out to convince anyone. i'm just living my life. i used your word at one point -- that was foolish. i should have said "grounds.&q...(more)
- You say that in one breath, but then in the next, you cite your experience as evidence. If you're saying there's no evidence for the existence of God, then you and I agree. If you're...(more)
- i bet you're fun at parties!
- I'm not angry at all. Believe what you want. But your evidence isn't evidence, it's just ... belief. Evidence presents a falsifiable argument.
- i think the very fact that i exist is evidence. the way the beauty of the world makes me feel is evidence. the horror and repugnance we all feel toward the idea of death and ending is...(more)
- So you're hypothesizing the existence of an entity for which there is and can be no evidence, an entity that has no discernable impact on the world, an entity who doesn't intervene in...(more)
- created it. sustains it. i don't believe that christian apologetics -- based on reason, i mean -- is effective, though. otherwise i'd tell you to read c.s. lewis. i think if you believe,...(more)
- So what does God do? What's God's impact on the world?
- Eyewitness accounts and the aftermath points to the fact that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead. Will try to support this point, but feeling verrrry sleepy at the moment.
- I don't think that's really how it works. If you believe in God, you can't prove what is influence by God and what isn't. There's not really a way to do a double blind study